After watching over 1200 comments sprout up concerning the “Vegan couple kills baby story”, I couldn’t help but notice the same irrelevant or dangerously inaccurate comments being spouted over and over.
People would respond to these comments with logic, calm reason, or research findings, and the trolls would simply regurgitate the same empty comment once again.
The Top 4 Most Inaccurate Comment “Trollings”:
1. Humans are Omnivorous
Comment: I think what we are really getting at, why I seem to be touching a nerve here, is that vegetarians and vegans are uncomfortable with the idea of thinking that in terms of evolution and plain old biology, they too are omnivores.
This one popped up a couple hundred times yesterday. No rational vegan/vegetarian will deny that as a society, humans act and live a omnivorous lifestyle. We eat meat and plants, the simplest definition of omnivorous obviously applies to us. What vegetarians and vegans alike are trying to get across, is that humans are adaptive eaters, therefore omnivores by choice. We consume or figure out a way to consume the natural resources around us and our bodies have the ability to cope with these changes over time (the appendix being a prime example of these adaptations).
Throughout all recorded human history, we have eaten meat because our bodies are capable of it and to meat eaters around the world, it tastes good. The strong movement away from meat in the vegetarian community of the past hundred years or so stems from the way in which meat is produced, animal treatment, and the growing health concerns of what is going into these animals and their meat. Also, the availability of alternative food choices outside of meat is increasing, which helps a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle become much simpler to obtain and preserve.
2. Its a “Fad” or “They are Extremists Forcing Their Opinions on Everyone”
Comment: … Being vegan and whatever is increasingly becoming just a thoughtless fashion meme. People do it ‘cos it’s cool without the required research or study needed to maintain such a demanding lifestyle …
Comment: Why do vegans always want to share with you the gruesome information they learn about processed food right when you’re about to eat it?
*The vegans/vegetarians won’t like my response to this one.* Living in a social group of vegetarian’s and being married to one, I have a pretty accurate idea of what a vegetarian is. Personally, I am not a vegan or a vegetarian, but through my wife and social groups I know many. I have never met this “extremist vegan” nor have I met the “fad” people. These people are in the extreme minority of the estimated 4-5,000,000 “vegetarians” in North America (Zogby).
Also, these people generally do not hang out together. Its fun for non-vegetarians to imagine this group of people as some cult who has weekly meetings to discuss taking down the meat industry. In actuality, vegans and vegetarians don’t hang out that much. There is this underlying unspoken rift that exists between the vegan and vegetarian, where vegans tend to view any consumption of animal products unethical thus alienating vegetarians, and many vegetarians who view vegan lifestyle as unobtainable or un-affordable in a meat dominated culture found in the US.
Extremists ruin everything for the people in the middle. The most recent example being the extremist radical Muslim’s indirectly causing violence against American Muslim citizens after 9/11. Yes, “preachy vegans” and “fad vegetarians” exist. They are the minority, and generally don’t associate with the middle ground vegetarians who make up the strong majority.
3. Animals have Been Killed “Forever” for Food, Who Cares…
Comment: I’ll eat my hamburger if I f******* want, don’t preach to me about how I’m killing animals.
This is probably the #1 most annoying comment, insult, threat, or patronizing jest that vegans and vegetarians getting bombarded with. There is a reason why there continue to be more vegetarians in the world. Sure, the population of the Earth is increasing, but it has more to ethics then mathematics.
The current meat production system is rather cruel. Believe it or not, but most vegans and vegetarians will chastise me for saying that. They want me to say its similar to genocide, etc, …… I view it simply as cruel and unacceptable. Mass production to meet ever growing demand has led to a system where animals are increasingly ripped apart while they are still alive, they live in sub-standard conditions for any animal, and they are viewed simply as a machine – nothing more.
The problems beyond this are that what is considered to be OK for one animal and not for another are completely different all around the world. Over 1 billion people refuse to eat cows; another few hundred million in Korea, China, and Vietnam eat cats and dogs. Each culture has a different idea of what is acceptable and not acceptable. My point is not to argue what is acceptable to eat, but to simply point out that the animal you are eating today, tomorrow, or ate yesterday, was most likely subjected to a horrible life and a cruel death. Something no responsible pet owner would ever allow to happen to their own animal.
The fact of the matter is, that after seeing the way animals are raised and “processed” here in America, vegans and vegetarians find it impossible to sit back and say, “Thats OK with me”.
4. Vegans are Bad Parents and Will Poison Their Babies
Comment: … those ignorant f**** had no right having a baby or pursuing a vegan lifestyle since they obviously had absolutely no idea what constitutes a healthy diet. People that fanatical about veganism deserve nothing less than life in jail.
This couple was unfit to have a baby, regardless of being vegan and they obviously had no concept of how to care for any living creature. If she was functionally lactating, they should have been breast feeding this infant, end of story. If she couldn’t lactate for some reason, then formula should have been used. Similac is used by millions of mothers, yet it a soy based milk product. There is nothing wrong with moderate amounts of soy products, but this baby was fed only soy milk and apple juice. This is clearly child abuse, regardless of vegan or vegetarian influences. The side of nearly every grocery store soy and rice milk container says “not for children under 3“.
There is no excuse for when human life should be squashed for fear of momentary ethical dilemma. However, the article title and focus could and should have focused on the fact that they starved their baby, not that the assumption that all vegans are “idiots” living a dangerous lifestyle.
Conclusion for all this:
Trolls will always exist. To say this one topic brings more of them out then any other is laughable. I felt it was necessary however to respond to some of the ridiculous comments I was reading.
Thank you,
Seth Kravitz
P.S. Since this is supposed to be an open letter and completely free to arguments and debates, bring on the comments.
26 responses so far ↓
Rebecca // May 4, 2007 at 1:36 pm
Well written article; I do want to point out one error in point 1 about bodybuilders/athletes.
Soy protein is widely used in bars due to the fiber and the fact it cooks up well. However, most of the protein supplements used by athletes (especially in the bodybuilding/fitness arena) are milk-based; whey and casein.
Andrey // May 4, 2007 at 2:01 pm
That’s not true. Whey protein is derived from milk, and bodybuilders (from all of the ones that I know, and the supplements that I use) don’t consume those types of protein bars.
ALL bodybuilders who use supplements use Whey protein, which comes from cow milk, not plants.
Seth // May 4, 2007 at 2:07 pm
Sorry about that. I didn’t realize that the bars I was looking at were whey based. And I forgot about the whey coming from milk. Took that one off being its completely wrong.
Nothing like looking like a jackass on a post that is supposed to be anti-jackass ;(
DV82XL // May 4, 2007 at 3:18 pm
As a meat eater I commend you on a rational and effective defense of your choice to remove flesh from your diet.
While I couldn’t care less how the animals that are butchered for food are treated, it does concern me that the process of converting plant mater to meat is highly inefficient and puts too much of a strain on the environment to continue.
Seth // May 4, 2007 at 4:01 pm
I actually haven’t removed all meat, which is why I state in the post that Im not a vegetarian.
I agree with you completely about the impact of our current agricultural system and its consistent and powerful negative effect on the environment.
Our unsustainable farming techniques and animal raising is having a tremendous effect on the environment in the US and naturally the world as a whole.
Nicole // May 4, 2007 at 4:23 pm
In addition to putting a strain on the environment, the meat industry’s use of antibiotics even when the animals aren’t sick is diminishing the effectiveness of those antibiotics for use in humans. This isn’t a critique of meat consumption in general, just this system (that requires everything to grow bigger faster). We have a tendency to take these incredibly powerful drugs for granted, but they may not work forever. There is a real possibility that in a few years we won’t be able to use one of our few tools to treat serious GI diseases in children and the only therapy for many cases of meningitis (see article).
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/03/AR2007030301311_pf.html
“The FDA knows how hard it can be to close that door. In the mid-1990s, overriding the objections of public health experts from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the drug agency approved the marketing of two drugs, Baytril and SaraFlox, for use in poultry. Both are fluoroquinolones, a class of drugs important for their ability to fight the bioterror bacterium that causes anthrax and a food-borne bacterium called campylobacter, which causes a serious diarrheal disease in people.
Before long, doctors began finding fluoroquinolone-resistant strains of campylobacter in patients hospitalized with severe diarrhea. When studies showed a link to poultry, the FDA sought a ban. But while Abbott Laboratories, which made SaraFlox, pulled its product, Baytril’s manufacturer, Bayer Corp., pushed back.”
Brocklesocks // May 4, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Thanks for making a reponse to that headline on Reddit. I’m not a vegetarian or vegan now, but was raised as a vegetarian because of the health factors you pointed out and then some. I actually didn’t even both reading that article because I knew it would be presented in such an objective way, by just reading the headline.
I completely agree with you on all points, and thanks again for explaining like an ADULT
Seth // May 4, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Thanks for the nice reply. Everyone that has disagreed so far has been very formal and respectable with their replys. No trolling as of yet.
Bob Matsuoka // May 4, 2007 at 5:07 pm
Very nice post — thanks. Something about the comment forums on Digg and Reddit, to a lesser extent, seems bring out the worst in people. Very depressing. Nice to see someone take the time to push back.
Seth // May 4, 2007 at 5:09 pm
I totaling agree. After Yahoo got rid of their comment board, the trolls had to run somewhere.
Thanks for the comment.
Chet // May 4, 2007 at 6:14 pm
Hey! Fuck you! ahh just kidding, i had to throw a wrench in the works. your responses to these topics are pretty on-point. its a hard job to try and slice through the precarious web of bullshit people surround themselves with in order to not have to think about the choices they make. i think one way we could move to a better future would be to enforce true-cost pricing to all animal products. this isn’t a new idea or anything, but think of it, if that hamburger from mickey Ds, which currently goes for about 75 cents or so, actually reflected the cost and scarcity of the resources that went into its production, i think you’d see a lot more people chomping on carrot sticks instead. meat is usually tasy, and it is usually cheaper than healthier alternatives. and too many people aren’t willing to change their lifestyle because it harms others, but if you hit people where it hurts, i’m sure we’d see some positive change. just like taxing cigarettes in the industrialized nations that actually provide healthcare (see: all of them except the USA). The first step to any of this is to get someone in office with a conciense, don’t blow this one people!
Seth // May 4, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Other then starting off with fuck you, I agree with everything you said. I realize taxing people for eating meat is completely out of the question, but you did raise a good point that I have been talking to my friends about for a long time.
If you treat animals with respect and caring, you end up with expensive meat. Case in point, Kobe beef. These animals are raised from birth and treated like kings. The are massaged daily, bathed in milk, fed organic natural feed, and treated like an actual living creature. The end result is a steak that sells for $120-150.
So if treating animals decently costs $120 a steak, how horrible of a life did the cow that ended up the $9.99 strip steak at Outback have?
Also the health implications of eating poor quality meat are showing up every day more and more in the US. You see the results at local hospitals, you see the results in the size of airline seats, and you see the results in our collapsing health care system. People need to start eating healthier, and for some becoming vegetarian may be a good choice for them.
Ann E. Mouse // May 4, 2007 at 8:12 pm
“I have never met this “extremist vegan” nor have I met the “fad” people.”
Um, then I have to assume you’ve never been to Sebastopol. There you can get the evil eye or a lecture or get talked about behind your back for:
* Not being a Veg*
* Being a male human (male animals are tolerated)
* Speaking out against non-vegan cats who kill songbirds because cats are women too.
Lee // May 4, 2007 at 11:00 pm
I am a Vegan. These parents had issues. This was never a “Vegan” issue, they probably thought they could use it has means of escaping jail. The images of their home, shows no plates or any kind of food, save some soy milk and one bottle.
Mature Vegans would have everything itemized and categorized on healthy nutrion for a vegan child. I did not become vegan until my youngest one was about 4, however, I have studied enough that you can raise a child from infancy on a vegan diet and well. Just because I am Vegan, doesn’t mean I belong to PETA either. LOL. I tred carefully with what I read and take into heart. I have my beliefs and even my kids pick on me, yet they love my food over their dads meat…LOL I think those people will remember what they did for the rest of their lives. I feel for their loss, but who only has one bottle with no formula in the house? Most formula’s are soy based. Such a sad day and makes vegans look uneducated.
Summer Foovay // May 6, 2007 at 2:17 am
Thank you for this very well written, well reasoned article. You avoid all the emotionalism in favor of plain, simple reason.
I would like to add that many vegetarians have made their choice for health reasons. For instance, my husband has kidney disease. A low-protein diet is best for him – and easy to maintain with a vegetarian lifestyle.
Stories such as this one, and one a year or two ago about a fellow in France who was hospitalized for malnutrition are always greatly sensationalized and then cited for years as “proof” that a vegetarian diet will kill you. The fact that 4 or 5 million vegetarians live happy, healthy lives doesn’t make as good a news story.
The trolls will always find something and somewhere to practice their negativity.
Matthew Martin // May 6, 2007 at 10:48 pm
Hear hear!
Jesse // April 14, 2008 at 4:51 pm
A refreshing article to read, well done. I personally don’t understand why people get bent out of shape over someone’s own diet. The child abuse, as you pointed out, is a whole different subject; these people were clearly not fit to own a cactus.
Josh // May 13, 2008 at 11:55 am
I think even though they were vegan parents, breastmilk would be okay. Cow milk is for cows, human milk is for humans. The ethical reason most vegans are against dairy is due to the way it is extracted from the cows- with forced pregnancy, steroids, and long hours on merciless machines- but a mother breastfeeding her child has nothing of the sort.
And to the trolls… You can’t judge an entire group of people based on the decisions of two of them. That would be like me saying every single person that lives in America is fat and lazy. Hey, it was in the news once, so it must be true- right? No. I know many Americans, none of them are like they are portrayed in the media.
And now, to the meat eaters. I don’t like having a go at people, but i honestly cannot understand why anybody could eat meat after seeing what’s done to make it. And i especially hate the meat eaters that will then go and complain about Japan’s whale fishing and things.
“Oh, it’s perfectly fine to torture and kill millions upon millions of innocent creatures every year, but don’t touch any of those dolphins!”
And then they go on to say that dolphins should not be killed because they are intelligent, yet it’s a common fact that pigs are smarter than human children. Do we kill human children? Nope.
Perhaps went on for too long a bit there… But yeah, great post
isa // June 15, 2008 at 11:13 pm
All in all a pretty good post.
Also, I’m with Josh. Quite frankly I do not understand how people can say they don’t give a shit about how the animals they eat are treated. That’s pretty fucking warped in my eyes. Not only does it show a total lack of compassion, after being a vegetarian for a few years, it seems downright barbaric and totally incomprehensible.
isa // June 15, 2008 at 11:16 pm
I’m going to add that I’m not having a go at meat eaters. I don’t have a huge problem with others eating meat, per se, but I still believe in ethical treatment of farm animals.
E. Michael Martin // June 23, 2008 at 10:58 pm
I agree with most of this post. I have recently started being vegetarian. Meat disgusts me except in its most processed form. Weird huh? I guess if I know I’m eating animal muscle, I become nauseated.
Rebecca2 // July 29, 2008 at 11:22 am
Thanks for this article. I defend vegetarian lifestyle. My 18 year old is alittle upset because i won’t buy him meat. sorry! get a job and buy your own. I did go alittle overboard when I tried unsuccessfully to convert the cats to vegan lifestyle. They are too old and I had to give in as they got alittle ill. I tried though. Does anyone here have vegan cats? Please write Ralexa333@aol.com. thanks for the article.
Kel // September 29, 2008 at 11:44 am
Rebecca, I would argue against giving cats a vegan diet. I’m vegetarian mind you, but one bit part I think of being a sensible vegan/vegetarian is not enforcing it on others, and realistically, cats are made to be omnivores whole in whole.
I would argue Seth that humans were once meant to be omnivores, but over the last few thousand years have changed slightly enough to make an omnivore lifestyle less about biology and more about choice/tradition. Its in this book I have; wish I had a scanner to show you.
Regardless, I agree 100% with the statement that many vegetarians and vegans choose that lifestyle because of the treatment of animals today. And no matter how much people try to spin it another way, if you go into it sensibly, having a healthy vegetarian lifestyle is easy (been done in India for over 5000 years after all).
Paul // November 12, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Similac comes in several varieties. Yes one of them is soy based. But most parents don’t use the soy based one. The common one “Similac Advanced” (the blue label) is a dairy-based product. First ingredient is Nonfat dairy milk.
Marius // November 17, 2008 at 12:47 pm
I eat meat feel bad about it (compare to alcoholic hating his addiction). Of course I eat much less of it than average person, but can’t call myself a vegetarian…
Love those people (well, some may be annoying proselytes but great majority is very cool).
I feel great empathy to suffering animals. Funny someone said (s)he was a vegan but not really a fan of PETA. I’m on other end of a spectrum
Nathan Watt // April 14, 2009 at 4:16 pm
It’s refreshing to read an article by someone who leaves out emotion, as already stated in the comments.
I have to question one major point though: How have you not seen these extremist vegetarians who use shaky reasoning they found in a PETA article to “prove” you’re an immoral, disgusting, human being? I see them on almost a daily basis. If you want an example, to see how pretentous these assholes can be, take a look at a video on YouTube called “Murder Eaters”, posted by the user Onision.
Logic’s rare nowadays, and it’s good to see that not everyone is as arrogant as so many others. Well done.
Sincerely,
Meat Eater for life, Nathan Watt.